L.o.R.E. Information

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Erithe
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L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/24/14

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Hey Folks!

This is the general L.o.R.E. guild invite to Ravenites who are playing or who intend to play Landmark. Right now, guild functions have not yet been put into the game, but they're coming. So, I wanted to get us started on what we are in the game, what we intend to do, and how we'll organize for this.

Right now, I am including everyone who is playing or about to play Alpha and/or Closed Beta. If you're a Ravenite, you're a member of L.o.R.E. EQN and EQN:Landmark are supposed to have some kind of multi-guild system. We don't know a lot about it yet, but we do know that if you join us, you're not necessarily going to be unable to join another guild, too. So that's a bonus!

We're also going to have our own RM chat channel. It should be /RM for RP and /RMOOC for RM OOC discussions (obviously). So even if the guild thing above doesn't work, we can all still communicate.

Right now, what I'm looking for is who is interested in the guild and to get ideas for how we can structure the guild and run it. I'd like this to be an RP guild, as well as a building guild. So, let's see what you all think of to suggest!

We need suggestions for officer rank names, general rules, and possible projects.
  • Officer Ranks -
    Guild Leader, 2 or 3 officers, special and regular ranks, newbies.
    What do we name these and what should their function be?
    • Some of the ideas, I've had here are to have the Inn Keeper, the Managers, and the Patrons. Or to have the Construction Manager, the Supervisors, Specialist titles, regular builders/gatherers ... something like that.
  • Guild Rules -
    I have some definite ideas about rules and the like, but I do want to hear what you think, too.
    • I'm going to be going over the rules for the RM channel from EQ2, applying some of those rules to the guild itself, using a lot of those rules for the chat channels, etc. However, we also have the guild to run. So, we also need membership rules, rules of conduct, etc. The first rules will always be "Don't be a Dick" - W.Wheaton, "Keep it Simple, Stupid", and "Remember yourself in public."

      Input here is welcome. Remember, this is a guild based on a social forum. Members of the forum are members of the guild. What we need are rules for accepting new people, rules for behavior in game, and IC rules for the IC side of the guild.
  • IC Side:
    Who are we?
    What are we up to?
    What world is it?
    Give your thoughts here, as well.
  • Possible Projects -

    Our first project is the Raven itself, our own houses, and the village. Please post your thoughts and ideas. Please see this thread: <a class="postlink-local" href="htt

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Kirath
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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Kirath » 03/25/14

I'm a big fan of 'Don't Be a Dick' and 'The Big damn Policy' as guiding principals for the guild. Simplicity is important, as is communication. Some kind of 'Drama Free Zone' policy might not go amiss either.

Anyhow, count me in! I am definitely more of an explorer than a builder so I can be counted on to do a lot of resource gathering and the like.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Vela » 03/25/14

I've had the pleasure of being a long term member in two completely drama free guilds and they both have a few things in common :)

-An involved application process with at least three steps prior to receiving a guild invite
-A long trial period for new members that was never skipped (a month is just enough to bring out someone's true colours, but three months is even better)
-The only difference between officers and regular full members was the ability to send guild invites and use /guildkick

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by TashMonster » 03/25/14

Count me in for the guild! I have my founder's pack all purchased so I'm ready to start!

Here are my thoughts about the OOC guild stuff:

I completely agree with Vela's suggestions. Long trial periods are usually the best way to go because they separate out anyone who isn't really committed to joining the guild and so they'll be more likely to want to resolve disputes rather than escalate and create drama. Also it gives plenty of time to really get to know someone and to tell if they'll be a good fit. And there can't be exceptions, no matter how awesome someone seems or how well they're known outside of the game.

I'd also like to add that in my experience, a small leadership core is best. Having too many officers dilutes the authority and allows a member to "shop around" for the best response to their gripe, like a kid who doesn't like Mommy's answer and goes off to ask Daddy. One leader and a few officers should be enough unless the guild becomes truly ginormous.

Lastly, I would recommend a clause in there somewhere saying that the guild leader's word is law. A leader should always be open to discussion and suggestions, but in the end that leader's decisions must be final and enforced.

I'll add my thoughts on the IC side of things when I have some more time to write them down.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/25/14

So, what if someone joins the Raven, becomes a Ravenite, and wants to join L.o.R.E.? Should we still require applications and time spent? Or do they become a member because they joined the forum?

I think, personally, that Ravenites with a join forum date before 03/2014 should be vetted for sanity. Not to be mean to new Ravenites, but to protect those we have.

I was thinking 1 GL and 3 officers, then maybe people who are in charge of IC things, but who don't have to handle drama. The Officerships are like forum mods here on the Raven, they're admins and mods, but the RP leadership and positions are just that, they're RP authority only. I have noted that separating these things works pretty well sometimes.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Ijaka » 03/25/14

Erithe wrote:So, what if someone joins the Raven, becomes a Ravenite, and wants to join L.o.R.E.? Should we still require applications and time spent? Or do they become a member because they joined the forum?

I think, personally, that Ravenites with a join forum date before 03/2014 should be vetted for sanity. Not to be mean to new Ravenites, but to protect those we have.
My thinking here is that everyone should have to go through the process. Not necessarily because we don't trust them, but to show future members that everyone plays by the same rules. Also, if any portion of the application process requires some introductory RP on the forum (and I suggest that it does) we'd have a record that people could look back at and it could be helpful for new members to get up to speed and find possible connections they could make with existing members.
Erithe wrote:I was thinking 1 GL and 3 officers, then maybe people who are in charge of IC things, but who don't have to handle drama. The Officerships are like forum mods here on the Raven, they're admins and mods, but the RP leadership and positions are just that, they're RP authority only. I have noted that separating these things works pretty well sometimes.
I was thinking of something along these lines. Some level of position like Story Leader (maybe not the actual rank term, but the general idea). These could be rotating or static positions; either you're always there trying to stir up RP for people to get involved in or you take the position, run your story, then hand it off to someone else when that storyline concludes.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/25/14

Well, the difficulty with making everyone do it is that we're all already here and this is specifically a guild for Ravenites. Currently, going into Landmark, it's a motley crew made up of whoever has the game / access. We've all already been through a certain vetting process of sorts by playing here. So, I'm trying to avoid making this extremely complicated going into it.

That said, not everyone is going to stay in the guild. That's guaranteed. Some folks will wander off, won't want to stay around for whatever reason, etc. So we will lose people. Ravenites who misbehave and are kicked from guild are not going to be kicked off the forum. But it is possible to be a Ravenite and be kicked out of guild for misbehavior, I think.

Anyone who comes to the guild who was NOT a Ravenite previous to 3/2014 would definitely need to go through vetting.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by TashMonster » 03/25/14

Erithe makes a good point and I don't mind revising my previous statement a bit...

The core group, especially those starting in the Alpha/Beta period, could probably be considered pre-vetted if they're already Ravenites. I mean, we don't get a ton of new people on the forums and I can't think of anyone who's been a Ravenite for less than three months, so I think that could work fine. But like, from here on out any new people should certainly have the vetting process.

Will the Beta version of the guild be IC? Or are we making this at the moment just be a gathering place for ease of communication and sharing of things? If it's the former, then we can probably be a bit lax on the IC requirements for joining.

However, if we are going full IC from inception, then our vetting process should definitely include some IC interaction and I think even established Ravenites should have to make a character bio post on the forums at the very least just so we know people are actually interested in being a contributing member of the guild.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/25/14

I was thinking -

One: Ravenites active between 2012-2014 don't have to go through vetting/application process. That way, if people come back to the Raven, but need reintroductions, that'll happen. Anyone else will need to go through Vetting, establishing themselves on the forums, and proving their state of not-a-breaker of the Wheaton Code.

Requirements for ongoing members should also be discussed. I have in mind that IC Profiles must be posted and kept up-to-date, and people need to let us know when they're going to be absent for any extended length of time.


Two: When we begin, we'll be building.

We need to decide on Guild Lore for Landmark - what are we going to use from the PDF novelettes released for EQN so far or are we going to do our own thing? We need to decide before we can RP.

Once we know what we're doing ICly, we can really decide what we'll be RPing. I'd like to do this ASAP.

So, initially, no IC intro, but once we have IC set, we'll make IC requirements that are appropriate.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Cyla » 03/25/14

No in-character intro makes the most sense to me. I expect that many people will be making up new characters to go along with the neoteric quality of starting a fresh game. In addition, allowances in builds will need to be made in order to mesh with the community, lore, and spirit of the guild.

From what I have heard there is currently only one playable race and one character per account- those two variables will limit RP initially as well.

For conversation's sake- who is intending to RP an existing character, and who is planning to start fresh? I'm unsure at this point which option I prefer.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Vela » 03/25/14

With regards to story leaders and so on, from experience, it's always worked best when roles like that are divorced from officership/leadership :) for example our raid leaders were always regular full members, never officers.

The sole job of the guild leader and officers was handling membership and keeping tabs on newcaps, and that kept them busy enough. The leadership was selected because they were active, long term proven members, who most importantly had shown that they could work well with the other officers and there'd never be any infighting between them. That way we could trust them to reach decisions together, which was the most important thing and helped kill dead the situation Tash describes where people causing trouble use misinformation and shop around between officers. We usually had between 3-4 officers total to cover around 50 members who were active daily, and 110ish members total.

Organizing crafting and raids and so on was handled by whichever full member had stepped up to the plate and proven themselves good at it, but there was never an official title or guild rank for it since the turnover tends to be high on these roles. It keeps things much more democratic :mrgreen:

I think L.o.R.E. sounds like it's going to be really impressive, especially looking forward to the much more exciting stuff of backstory and guildlore being fleshed out :D

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Vela » 03/25/14

I'll be starting fresh Cyla :D but not for a long while yet.

EDIT: Because my prior post sounds a bit preachy, I kinda think I should explain a bit further what happens when officership puts membership and looking after the newcaps on the backburner because they have other stuff to attend to. I've joined one RP guild on AB in EQ2 and this is how it went. I won't name which one it was, but I don't need to because this should be familiar to many of you since too many guilds operate like this:

I posted an app on the guild forum, same day I went through a few perfunctory questions from the GL in tells, did a little RP scenario, then was invited. Big cheers from the pals I had in guild already. Officers then proceeded to totally ignore my existence because I caused no trouble. Then IRL my grandfather passed away and I spent weeks out of game while I was in another part of the country helping my parents wrap things up. I got back after an absence of three weeks, logged in and found my character had been promoted in guild to full member because the one month vetting period had passed. I'm pretty certain the officer who bumped me to full member had pretty much no clue as to who I even was or even asked anyone else. Needless to say the guild as a whole was full of come and go players and had more than a few spectacular implosions and volcanic changes in leadership.

It's so, so important that officership do the job of properly working with and getting to know new members. It's their job to group with them, spend time with them, help them, but also help shape them into the kind of members the guild wants. That's why it should be their only job :) /preach
Last edited by Vela on 03/26/14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Lysari » 03/25/14

I'm definitely interested in a Raven guild. LoRE sounds like it's someplace I'd finally be pushed to RP more than just occasionally. Count me as another mostly explorer / crafter. Never did get the hang of the tools in alpha. But maybe with some guidance I'd be able too build more than a platform.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/26/14

Wow, guys :) This is GREAT feedback!
  • What do you all think about rank titles?

    I'm thinking of ... like, to begin? An exploration guild with a leaning toward construction. Something like, the current guild is there to explore a new world and establish their presence there with a new village and stronghold from which they can explore and adventure.

    I know I want a rank for brand new recruits, then regular full members -- and it would be nice if regular members could indicate what they did via their rank title. Like if they were an Explorer, a Gatherer, or a Builder, but with nicer names. Then have maybe a slightly more senior title for those who have hit the 1 year mark. Other than that, any ranks except GL would be functional only, so Lieutenant or Captain comes to mind, and GL could be ... something else.

    I just woke up so I'm not entirely coherent, I guess.

    What I ultimately want is rank names to be fun, to be something people can be glad to have and to show who they are.

    This has given me a LOT to think about. Keep the ideas coming!
  • Please remember as we go along that the only new people to have to go through guild admittance procedures (application, review, etc.) will be those who are not already members of the Raven between the beginning of 3/2012 to the end of 3/2014. Anyone who has not been active in that period will have to app and go through the process, too.

    I've seen a lot about which methods of application really work, and I think I'm going to implement a standard version of a forum app with character sheet, a questionnaire, in-game introductions, and activity checks along the way. I may be asking regular members to sponsor new characters, to keep an eye on them and see how they're meshing with the guild and on the forums.
  • Guild Lore: We have a choice, in Landmark, since we're limited to humans (though I hear we can make the ears pointy or will be able to do that soon): Do we play pre-EQN characters, or do we make our own lore?

    I was thinking this over, and I thought, for now, we could think about who we want to play in EQN and sort of proto-type it in Landmark. We could play a generic company that just wants to explore. We can name our village and we'll have the Raven ... so, we'll have places to visit and things to do. We could even use Pathfinder or another rule set for action rolls. Duv might be able to set us up using Thelus rules on the forum!

    So consider what you would want to play and how. This is pretty important if we expect to RP.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Cyla » 03/26/14

What about being settlers or refugees from another land/era? We can make up a backstory of where/when we came from... even carry through lore from EQ2. This would give those who would like to RP current EQ2 characters a reason for being there.

Perhaps we are fleeing after a cataclysmic event, summoned a magical portal, were the victim of a curse? The possibilities are endless. If the leadership of the new guild is former Sigils, you could use some Sigils lore.

As for the humans-only issue, we could determine what the races to be added in later would be and for RP purposes just pretend that we are that later race, and recreate the character later with the proper race?

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/26/14

I find I'm, personally, really iffy on the refugee style story? And bringing characters from EQ2 doesn't seem to jive with what will be going down in EQN eventually. This is specifically a Raven guild, so I was going to avoid any Sigils story-lines with it - since Sigils is a separate entity entirely.

I mean, it depends on what people want, but do we really want to bring EQ2 into it? I'd rather that be character based, not guild based.

And I agree about the race thing. I think that we should either play humans or pretend to be the other race for as long as we need to.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Cyla » 03/26/14

It's a constant struggle to not let my sci-fi fandoms take over all my ideas :)

The settlers/exploration would definitely work.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Inqe » 03/26/14

I shall read through this when my head stops pounding and my eyes unblur - but count me in.

I will comment then as well.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/26/14

Cyla wrote:It's a constant struggle to not let my sci-fi fandoms take over all my ideas :)

The settlers/exploration would definitely work.
Omg, get out of my head. ROFL

This is exactly why I'm thinking we should ... do our own thing, loosely related it to EQN so we can switch over when the time is right, and just ... have fun while we're building. USE the buildings we create, etc.

We can even name our world right now. We're on Serenity, on the Island of (insert name here), we came by hiking or ship or spire. We're here to establish our own land, gather and sell and build, and have adventures. Each person was born somewhere, lived somewhere, had a history from before ... so, that could be anywhere. I'm fine with people using names from other games, but we do need to set some limits on what people can do, so I'm thinking Pathfinder classes or create our own Thelus style sheets. Lyah would get a kick out of that, I think.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Inqe » 03/26/14

I for one will be starting fresh, I tend to do this in different games because they are different games. And I don't have a Human in any other game...

EQN is note EQ2 or even EQ it has different lore - EQNL is not even exactly EQN. I think Smoke said that somewhere. Right now EQNL feel more like a hey we found this neat planet through those weird spire things and Woot! Colony!

(I mentioned the migraine?)

As for structure of the guild, while I like the one leader over a small round of officers plan, it also becomes frustrating when that one leader poofs for any length of time and the officers have no permissions to do that job or parts of it mechanically.

The other scenario, with three or four officers at that top level, overseeing different functions (hunting, crafting, membership etc) and a smattering of next level down officers to assist in all aspects spreads the work around and ensures someone will be there for that mechanical need. Granted the top layer will need to trust each other and be able to work together as a whole.

I have seen both work wonderfully and fail, so Erithe, which would you be more comfortable with?

Rank titles? Hrm...

I do agree with a length of time, and some hoop jumping for new people to prove commitment and to weed out bandits, troublemakers and those that just disappear after a couple weeks. While current RM'ers may be vetted, we should still have to post some sort of character description.

Wheaton's Rules work for me, as does Lyah's and Arq's.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/26/14

The way I usually structure guild officerships for the functional/admin side of things, is that officers can do almost everything the G/L can do except make final kick decisions and big changes to guild structure, ranks, or things of that nature. Otherwise, there's no point to having officers if you can't be online at a certain time, etc. I mean, I work full time and have grad school classes - so my time is necessarily limited, so I need officers who are willing to do certain administrative tasks regularly.

That said, RP officerships won't have admin duties. They are there because they rose in the ranks via RP. RP leadership positions (in that they are DMs and storytellers) will be informal leaders, but will receive recognition for their work. I want to encourage people to lead RP whenever possible. But there is a definite separation between Administrative officers and RP leadership.

I find this works very well for a functioning guild. You need your admins to be stable and available, but RP leaders ... it really depends on inspiration and energy, which fluctuate and can be dependent on scheduling.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Astarax » 03/26/14

Erithe wrote:That said, RP officerships won't have admin duties. They are there because they rose in the ranks via RP. RP leadership positions (in that they are DMs and storytellers) will be informal leaders, but will receive recognition for their work. I want to encourage people to lead RP whenever possible. But there is a definite separation between Administrative officers and RP leadership.
Fantastic idea, I think this will compartmentalize any RP guild/organization into a more efficient form. Has this type of division been in the RP toolbox for a while now, and I'm just discovering it?

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Gineva » 03/26/14

Vetting and Rules: Sounds good. Very reasonable.

Ranks: While the general idea of activity based ranks sounds good, my brain starts asking questions like, "Well, what about those of us who enjoy all the activities? And what about those whose moods change where for a couple months they do a lot of exploring, and then they're more into building, etc...?" So, hmm...

Lore: I like the idea of proto-typing RP stuff for later use in EQN and going with a more generic explorer company for now. Especially with the game still in a state of major flux with additions, changes, claims wipes (and the possibility of character wipes if something gets fubared.)

Also, personally, if I play a character from one game in another, I go with an alternate version. Not the same actual same character transported to a new world. If anything, it's a starting point of tropes/traits I commonly like and recycling of names. They have an entirely different history and backstory, though, which means the new alternate turned out very different and is firmly set in the new game world. So, for example, if I took Ginny and made a Landmark/EQN alternate... both might be snarky old soldiers with a fondness for nicknames, but that's about the end of it. That's not to say others who do direct carry-overs are wrong. It's just my preference.

Though to be honest I'm more likely to change it up and go with a new character for this stage of Landmark due to the lack of races and such.

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Erithe » 03/26/14

Astarax wrote:
Erithe wrote:That said, RP officerships won't have admin duties. They are there because they rose in the ranks via RP. RP leadership positions (in that they are DMs and storytellers) will be informal leaders, but will receive recognition for their work. I want to encourage people to lead RP whenever possible. But there is a definite separation between Administrative officers and RP leadership.
Fantastic idea, I think this will compartmentalize any RP guild/organization into a more efficient form. Has this type of division been in the RP toolbox for a while now, and I'm just discovering it?

I think so! I've seen it used more than once now, and I think I've seen where it's been used well and where it's gone wrong. So I have some definite ideas on how to prevent it from going wrong. Admin leadership has to have the last say on rule breaking, including RP rule breaking ... because it's there to support the players. In order to keep one faction of RPers from trampling the rest, Admin has to be able to keep a separation of some kind between the two. For instance, if the guild were structured factionally, which I don't recommend, it would be BAD for a faction leader to also be an admin leader.

But I don't plan to have it set up in factions, and I want any RP roles or positions to be fluid. Some people like identifying by purpose and some people don't. I don't necessarily want to lock people into those roles. So, I think, maybe we'll do project leaders, instead of separating people by what they do.

Gineva wrote:Vetting and Rules: Sounds good. Very reasonable.
Thank you! I want this to be easy for the members and not -too- hard for the incoming folks. Though the onus will be on them to prove their worth, frankly.

Gineva wrote:Ranks: While the general idea of activity based ranks sounds good, my brain starts asking questions like, "Well, what about those of us who enjoy all the activities? And what about those whose moods change where for a couple months they do a lot of exploring, and then they're more into building, etc...?" So, hmm...
I think I answered this above when I replied to Astarax. I think having project leaders and grouping by what they're working on will be a better way to do 'ranks' which are really only going to be a way for people to identify in guild. It won't indicate actual ... seniority. A lot of that kind of thing will be RP'd among players per whatever lore we establish.

Gineva wrote:Lore: I like the idea of proto-typing RP stuff for later use in EQN and going with a more generic explorer company for now. Especially with the game still in a state of major flux with additions, changes, claims wipes (and the possibility of character wipes if something gets fubared.)
Yeah, I would LOVE to RP EQN stuff, but we really don't know enough yet. We'll cross each hurdle as we come to it, I guess :) For now, generic will be better, we'll focus on characters, and stories that we tell among one another.

Gineva wrote:Also, personally, if I play a character from one game in another, I go with an alternate version. Not the same actual same character transported to a new world. If anything, it's a starting point of tropes/traits I commonly like and recycling of names. They have an entirely different history and backstory, though, which means the new alternate turned out very different and is firmly set in the new game world. So, for example, if I took Ginny and made a Landmark/EQN alternate... both might be snarky old soldiers with a fondness for nicknames, but that's about the end of it. That's not to say others who do direct carry-overs are wrong. It's just my preference.

Though to be honest I'm more likely to change it up and go with a new character for this stage of Landmark due to the lack of races and such.
Yes! I agree there. When EQN comes out, it be will Erithe, but rebooted. The same person, basically, but without the history and events of EQ1 and EQ2. I don't know what will happen to her or who she will be by the end of the story :) I like that.

In Landmark? I don't know who I'll be playing. I'm still working that out. I may change the character name ...

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Re: L.o.R.E. Information

Post by Cyla » 03/27/14

Now that many of us are in game, do we have any chat channels established? How do we begin to connect with each other?

I am just amazed by the light and scenery in the game. It blows me away. Looking forward to more playtime in the near future. I was thinking a general Q&A thread on Landmark here on the RM forums would be helpful too. It took me half an hour of googling last night to figure out how to place a claim.

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